Transcript

Veronica: Rick and I will be back next time, but today I have a very special bonus episode of Is Child Free For Me, where my program graduates share their personal story of how they found peace, confidence, and joy with a child free choice. Today you will meet Amanda. Amanda shares her decade long struggle with a mother in law who was unwilling to accept her child free lifestyle.

Amanda's story highlights many of us face when external pressure and judgment clouds our decision to not have kids. She also sheds light on the lengths she went to in order to avoid feeling isolated within a community of military wives, all of whom were mothers. If a family member has ever made passive aggressive comments about your decision not to have kids, you will relate to Amanda and how these subtle jabs and sometimes not so subtle can make us feel undermined and stir up doubt and confusion about [00:01:00] the child free choice.

Let's get into it.

I'm so excited to have Amanda on today because I know that's. So many of you will relate to her story about receiving pressure and judgment from family, and sometimes even when the pressure and judgment is not front and center, we're still getting those passive aggressive comments that really staying and can be really hurtful.

Amanda is a graduate of my program, is Child Free for Me. essential guide to exploring Chelsea life. She lives in Atlanta with her husband, Clinton. And Amanda was recently in Austin. She's a professional photographer, shooting a wedding, and we got to finally meet and hang out and it was so fun. Yay. We had such a good time.

So welcome Amanda. Thank you so much, Veronica. I'm so excited. Yeah, thank you so much back for taking the time to talk to me and I have so many questions for you But I think that before we really [00:02:00] dig into what I just mentioned all this pressure from family and all these comments I'm interested to know at what point in your journey.

Did you realize that having a A kid 

Amanda: was a choice like most of us growing up in a religious household going to private school. It was always just something that was always taught and preached. I dated a gentleman for about three years. We were engaged. He had a child from a previous relationship and just the way that he parented.

Was not in line with what I thought I wanted out of a partner, a future husband, a future father of my children. And then once that relationship ended, that's when I decided that I did not want children because it was just not what was lined up with what my life goals were. 

Veronica: So do you think that dating him during that time opened up the doors for you to see what being a parent was all about?

Amanda: Absolutely. I was more involved with his child than he was. Oh, how old was the kid? He was a year and a half when I Oh, young, young. I ended the relationship when he was four and a half, so a good three and a half, almost four years of being a bonus mom, step mom, because we weren't married or we weren't engaged, but we were engaged.

So it wasn't like an official title, but I definitely felt the weight of. Being a bonus mom to this child in primary parent, because whenever we did have his kid, he was very absent. He wanted to turn the TV on and to be like the babysitter for his child. That's such an 

Veronica: interesting experience. And it's actually not the first time I've heard this from one of our graduates, because it does happen when we date people, they already have kids and we do get to experience that.

And it's actually, I didn't know this tidbit about you and [00:04:00] I, I actually, I actually spoke to one of our grads, recent grads, only a few weeks ago and she had the same exact experience where the guy that she was dating really removed himself from the situation and she felt like she was co parenting with his ex wife.

And do you relate to that as well? Hands on. Hands on. Yeah. Unbelievable, unbelievable. So, okay, so you had this experience, you were dating someone, you became this bonus mom, you ended the relationship, and at that point you decided, I don't think that this is for me. So do you felt that you shut the door, locked it, closed it on kids, or did it just make you lean towards not having kids?

Amanda: It definitely made me lean towards not having kids. I still had this pressure from family and of course the societal pressure because I was in my early twenties. I think I was like 21, 22 at that time. So fairly young. Oh, really young. Yes. I was with him since I was 17 and a half, 18, somewhere [00:05:00] along those lines.

And I still had this immense pressure from growing up in a church, growing up in a Christian home, and I was like, I don't know if kids are for me. And then once. I started going through therapy because, of course, with that past relationship, he was very narcissistic at the same time. So, I immediately went into therapy because I was just all in my head.

Yeah, I'm sure you had so much healing 

Veronica: to do. 

Amanda: Absolutely. And then through therapy, that's when the decision was made that I'm probably not wanting children. And That is where the conversation started opening up more towards me So 

Veronica: at this point when you're in therapy and you're really coming to the realization that kids are probably not for me Did you already were you single at the time or had you already started dating your husband?

Amanda: I have a single 

Veronica: okay, 

Amanda: I was mingling along and [00:06:00] A serious relationship is not on my radar during this pivotal moment in my life 

Veronica: Okay. And at this pivotal moment, were you sharing your thoughts of I'm not going to have kids or I'm heavily leaning towards the idea of not having kids with anybody in your close circle or in your family?

Amanda: No, it was very much private. I don't think that my parents would have judged me at this time. I just think they would have told me that I was too young to make that decision. Think about it a little bit more. You're very maternal, so if you don't have kids, what are you going to do with that maternal instinct as far as a career or what have you?

Veronica: Yeah, it's really interesting that you bring up maternal and maternal instinct. I know that we went through this in the program, but this comes up so much. I mean, people have told me so many times that I'm maternal, and I really love to reframe that word to nurturer or nurturing because You're, I know you, you're [00:07:00] an extremely nurturing person.

You're also have been a nanny for a really long time. You're extremely caring for the people around you. And it's really interesting to me how we can see this or how outside people see maternal only for children, rather that we can be nurturing women. Right? Women towards other people in our lives, other adults, our friends, our partners.

And it's all part of that nurturing side inside of us, which I know that you have. So let's get into when you started dating Clinton. Well, you tell me, what was the conversation when you were dating him about having kids? How did he feel about it? And how did you both feel about it as a couple? 

Amanda: When I met my husband, we were, I was 23, I think 24, somewhere around there, and at that point in my healing journey, it was like about 2 years, um, since the past relationship, I was heavily leaning towards not having kids, so when it He and I met it was 1 of [00:08:00] the 1st, probably like, 10 questions we asked on our 1st, or I asked on our 1st date that if you wanted kids, right?

Like, soon within the next, like, 3, 4 years and he was like. I don't know. And at that point I was like, okay, I can deal with an, I don't know right now because then we can dive deeper into this conversation later on. But as long as he's not wanting someone to pop out babies right now or in the next year, I'm good.

Well, let me ask you this 

Veronica: because when people are dating and we get this, They don't know exactly how to bring up the kid question off the bat. A lot of people do not like to do it on the first date because they don't want to seem, you know, quote unquote crazy or too forward. I always encourage people to do it on the first date.

What made you want to ask that question on the first date? 

Amanda: My past experience with the guy that I dated for almost three years and him being [00:09:00] not the greatest. Ideal dad, in my opinion. And then just the guys that I had a couple of dates with before him, um, wanting babies right then and there, I was like, this is important to me because I want a man who was going to support me and my education goals as well, my career goals and kids are not on the forefront of my mind.

I knew that the. Conversation need to be had soon. 

Veronica: Yeah I mean I see it all the time because people get really nervous about asking the question up front or even a first couple of dates And then I get this DMS or these comments on YouTube Well, I know I'm in love with the person and they definitely want kids and then they get all Entangled in this messy situation.

So I always do advise that people do it on the first date I'm so happy that you did and it says a lot about your Clarity and your healing after this relationship, because you were looking out for yourself a lot of times when we're dating, we tend [00:10:00] to maybe fall back on our needs and our wants to listen to what other people may need and want.

So that's amazing that you were able to do that at such an early age. That's really admirable. Thank you. Okay. So now you and Clinton are serious into the relationship and you're engaged, you're married and what happens as far as the family, are they asking you, are you having kids? What did discuss prior?

Tell us how that all unfolded. 

Amanda: A little backtrack. Whenever my husband brought me home to his parents, he is from Florida and I'm from Kentucky and the primary. Desk location of our relationship was in Kentucky, my hometown. He never brought a girl home like I was his first girlfriend. And so whenever he brought me home, it was a big deal to his mom.

That's huge. He, he's the baby of the family, youngest of four or five. And, um, the first girl he's bringing home to mom. It was that conversation or that trip [00:11:00] that he brought me home that she was like, I want you and Clinton to have my grand babies. Now we. We were just Dating six, six, seven months, something along those lines.

We've already had this conversation, but my mother in law is very forthcoming. That conversation made my draw my jaw dropped to the floor. I was floored that she asked this question because and what did you say? How did you handle it? I was like, We've had these discussions before. It's not something that we're considering at this moment.

Because this is my first time meeting her, so I want to make a good impression. I want his parents to like me and approve of me. I didn't want to be rude at the end of the day. Like, I just wanted to acknowledge that, um, she expected grandbabies from my husband. So I wanted to respect that, but I also needed to stay on my ground.

To an extent just to close that door. I don't want to have this conversation with you type of [00:12:00] answer 

Veronica: Yeah, and what about did clinton give you a little bit of a warning? Walking into it or was he as shocked as you were by her question? He was shocked. 

Amanda: He was. They've never really had this discussion because he never brought a girl home.

He never really dated. I think he probably dated like one or two girls in high school that lasted like a month or two, but never brought them home. Never talked about girls because he wasn't That type of guy in high school. He was a gamer. He was a skateboarder. He was out with his best guy friends doing teenage boy stuff, not involving with parties or girls, anything.

I remember that conversation, that moment very vividly because we just looked at each other and we're like, did she really ask us this? Like we, we're, we're serious in a relationship, but not that serious that. We need to start talking about babies at this point, right? 

Veronica: And that tends to [00:13:00] leave, like, what kind of a feeling did you walk out of there with after that conversation?

Amanda: Gosh, I cannot get out of there quick enough.

She just kept on pressing. She was like, Oh my goodness, you guys are going to have the most beautiful babies. Clinton is going to be such a good daddy. Just look at him with his nieces and nephews and he's so loving and gentle towards you. And then she just Went on and on and on about it, and we were just looking at each other, just nodding, like, yeah.

So I left feeling very, not defeated, but like, Is this how my future relationship with potential mother in law is gonna be? Like, I don't want that question to be constantly pushed. Especially if we made it I, I feel like I made it very clear that we're not talking about babies right now. Like we're just enjoying our dating relationship.

So that left me feeling like, Oh boy, here we go. Like this is probably going to be something I'm going to have to tackle, but hopefully not for a while. Okay. 

Veronica: So here's the big [00:14:00] question. Did you have to tackle it for a while? 

Amanda: I am still 

Veronica: tackling it. 10 

Amanda: years. 

Veronica: All right. So let's go back to when, because I could imagine that she expresses her desires, right, to have grandchildren.

And I can also imagine that she is somewhat understanding that you've been together X amount of time. And once you get married, that's when it'll really happen. So how did the. Comments or the pressure shift and did it shift once you did get married? No 

Amanda: didn't shift It was okay. So it was steady. It was more often because we eloped so we didn't have anything big Just my parents and my brother showed up and we got a call from her the next day after we told her that we got married And she was like, okay now start making babies I'm like, I just got married and it was so funny [00:15:00] because I had her on speakerphone and we were sitting at lunch with my parents and my parents are very conservative, very private in a lot of aspects.

So they were just as mind blown that she's. Already telling us to go make grandbabies the day after we got 

Veronica: married did hearing it from her Maybe make them step back from sharing their own opinion or did it add to their opinion about yeah We would love for you to do this as well 

Amanda: that particular conversation Opened up a conversation between me and my parents Not including Clinton.

Um, it was a couple of weeks later. My mom decided to FaceTime me and asked me if Clinton and I are deciding to have children. Now I know that I probably broke her heart to an extent when I told her that we're pretty much firm at this point in our early marriage. We were just married for. Maybe a month that we weren't going to have kids for a couple of years.

That was the plan if at all because we were still iffy. We were still on that teeter tot. She [00:16:00] asked me flat out She's like Amanda. Are you planning on having any kids with Clinton? And I said no at this time. This is just not right for us We are very early in our 20s, and we just want to enjoy life and she's like mm hmm Because my mom, she had me later on in life.

She had me when she was 27, maybe 28. So she understood wanting to go to travel and enjoying being married and just enjoying the relationship in the moment that we are right now. 

Veronica: Yeah. And it's. It seems from the story that you're sharing that it makes sense because you're so young, you're in your early twenties still or mid twenties.

So it does seem like the sort of thing that is just going to happen later. And from your mom's perspective, I can see it being like, okay, yeah, you should, especially with what you just shared about her own experience, you should travel, explore, do what you have to do before you do this. But did you get the sense that she was.

Like, we're going to revisit this at some point. 

Amanda: [00:17:00] Yeah. The way the conversation ended and just the way that it conspired was definitely something that we're going to have to talk about later. So I want to talk a 

Veronica: little bit about the idea that even though you were almost a hundred percent child free at this point, you're very clear in what you want and you don't want, and I know that a lot of people listening are feeling the same way.

However, When there is this type of judgment or pressure or criticism or comments, it starts to skew our own thoughts and our own beliefs. So I was wondering if you can share a little bit about. If that happened to you and how that happened to you, 

Amanda: it has been a constant struggle. We've been married for 10 years this year in August.

And I'm constantly asked when you having grandbabies or when am I getting grandbabies from you? And it's hurtful coming from her. Respect her so much. And Clinton does. [00:18:00] Of course, as his mom, just the thought of us disappointing her has been hurtful to us, but it doesn't, just because she's disappointed in our choice to be child free, doesn't mean that our desire to remain child free should be skewed and we should reconsider our decision.

Viewpoint in our lifelong choice. 

Veronica: Yeah, tell me a little bit more about that sense of disappointment because it's really common I actually I'm in the middle of my program right now and one of the members She was sharing how one of her friends just announced to her parents that she was pregnant and how happy the parents were and it really Made her feel quite anxious, right?

Because she knows that she, if she was to deliver this news to her parents, they would react in the same way. So tell me about that feeling of disappointing your mother in law. What is, tell me more about that. Like how [00:19:00] does it ultimately affect you? 

Amanda: Disappointment is something I've always struggled with.

I want to make sure everybody's happy. I want to make sure that I am approved by everybody in my inner circle. I'm very close with my family. So hearing that I am disappointed in my mother in law is something that I've really struggled with. 

Veronica: Yeah. I mean, I think that's what happens a lot is that parents who want to be grandparents are really focused in on their own needs and wants.

And if they've been expecting to be grandparents from day one and that gets taken away from them, it's very hard for them to deal with. How did this affect your relationship with Clinton? Because here's your mother in law throwing all these comments around and really having all these expectations being really disappointed.

So how did that affect your relationship? Because I imagine At 

Amanda: this point in our marriage, since we've been married for so long, we're very solidified in our child free decision. It has not affected us, but in the early years, probably [00:20:00] like year zero to probably six or seven, we had arguments because I'm like, you really need to nip your mom in the butt.

Because if I have a conversation with her right now, especially when I was like, Really heated about it. It's not going to mean good. Like I'm going to cut off all communication because I'm not going to have somebody make me feel guilty for a decision that we have collectively made as a couple. Once he actually told his mom, you need to stop because not only pissing off Amanda, but you're hurting.

Us as a couple because you're causing conflict between us that really like changed it all. Yeah. 

Veronica: And I think this is such a really important example because when women are going through the program, a lot of times and dealing with outside pressure with any source, whether it's a parent or an in law. The idea is that they're eventually going to stop and sure that may happen at some point if you're able to build a different kind of relationship, have really important conversations, have them respect your choice, but [00:21:00] oftentimes it doesn't stop right and it could be outside pressure, outside judgment, whether it's an in law opinion.

parent, a coworker, a sibling, a friend. So it's not so much about whether they're going to stop. It's all about how we're going to handle it and how it's going to affect us internally. And I think that when you first reached out to me, I think Feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, that's where you were, where you were being very much affected by having her apply this pressure on you.

And sure, some people can say, Oh, just ignore it. Who cares what other people think? But it's easier said than done. 

Amanda: Absolutely. And as somebody who is an empath and somebody who truly cares about. The thoughts and feelings that people have towards me. It's not easy to let 

Veronica: it go. If someone is just continuing to apply this behavior on you, I think that any person would get frustrated.

So it's pretty normal. So during our initial conversation, I [00:22:00] remember you saying that the thought came into your mind of because she was doing this often. Well, if he would have married someone else, then that person would have given him children and then The lineage would have continued. She would have had all the visits that she wanted.

So tell me a little bit about how that thought came into your mind. 

Amanda: She made several comments of maybe you're not the right woman for Clinton because you're not going to give him babies. My husband is the last of his dad's lineage. So he's the last one to carry on the name that weighed heavily on me because I'm going to be the one to not carry on somebody's name and somebody's name carries a lot of weight, especially in society, no matter where you live, your name is something that is important to a lot of people.

Veronica: Yeah, especially men, because whenever we've asked men and we've polled people, like, who really feels very strongly about lineage, about [00:23:00] passing on the name, about this is all like very male oriented, male focused thoughts. 

Amanda: I'm the reason why Our last name is not carrying on. And that was, that was a burden to carry for a while.

Maybe it does carry with him just a tidbit, but it still has not swayed our decision to remain child free. 

Veronica: I wanted to bring up the fact that your husband's in the military. And I remember that when you first reached out to me, Being in this environment felt very isolating for you because of the moms and the kids around.

So I was hoping that you can share a little bit of that experience. 

Amanda: Absolutely. So, just like anybody else in society, when you move into a neighborhood, there's probably a hundred houses that have some number of children. In the military, it's even greater. Almost everybody that you meet in the military has children, whether they're adopted, [00:24:00] biological, foster, whatever, there's children in a home 99 percent of the time, me being semi social, I still like my personal time.

I like to be an introvert. Sometimes I want to go out and do things with girlfriends. I want to go hiking. I want to go to concerts. Meeting friends has been so hard being a child free woman, because one of the Expectations for me being child free is that I have all the time in the world on my hands, even though I work, I'm a wedding photographer.

I am traveling almost 2, sometimes 3 weeks out of a month that I'm able to babysit your kids because you want a date night or because you need to go run errands or whatever you need childcare for. I'm the one that is default. Because typically military families live away from their families. I was so desperate for friends that I would make mom friends and I would be the default person to go pick up their kid from daycare because they were sick [00:25:00] or to be the person that they needed whenever their husband was deployed.

So I would go over, have movie night with the, with the kids and the parents, which is no problem. Like I have no problem. Right. 

Veronica: But why 

Amanda: do you think 

Veronica: that is? Why do you think that you. Became the default person other than maybe just trying to be kind and helping. Why else were you feeling that way that you needed to do this?

Because I want people to like me at the end of the day. 

Amanda: Yeah, I wanted a friendship and I felt like it wasn't. The default babysitter or default caretaker, if they had some incidents happen, then I wouldn't have a friend, even though you for 

Veronica: being honest, because I know that a lot of people listening to this or watching this feel that way.

And I think it's really important to listen to it. Because so many times, and I can relate, I've done this myself so many times. We want people to like us. We're people pleasing [00:26:00] and we're putting ourselves second, right? And sometimes it's so automatic. Right? Probably you went into this default mode, not even really analyzing what's going on.

You can look back in hindsight, but you want to be part of the group. You don't want to be left out. You want to be included. You want to be liked. And you became this sort of babysitter slash nanny slash helper. And how long did that go on for? A couple years. 

Amanda: Longer than I probably should have let on.

Right. I'm guessing probably about three, three and a half, possibly four years, because I just felt this need that if I wasn't going to be a babysitter for the kids, then I was going to miss out on all these friendships. Because of course moms get together because they have play groups. They have play dates and their homes together and they're doing all these things.

But as a child free woman who doesn't have that one thing in common. Children, [00:27:00] it's hard and they can talk about all these milestones that their kids are going through all the hardships of like breastfeeding and raising kids and bedtimes all that. But the only thing I can complain about is my dog growling at the wind, for example, or my cats getting into a little quarrel between each other.

I don't have that common analogy of. And motherhood. And I just can't relate to that. It's interesting 

Veronica: that you use the word. The only thing I can complain about is my dog. Because complain is an interesting word, right? Because oftentimes I remember myself feeling left out because there was a lot of complaining about the experience.

And I wanted to be included and I wasn't really understanding that what was happening was complaining. I really saw it as sharing and friendship. But then when you look back and take a bird's eye view, there is a lot of complaining [00:28:00] about what is happening, about how hard it is, about how rough it is. But we are blind to that because we're just looking at it from a perspective of isolation.

So tell me when you see Stopped putting yourself in that default mode babysitter. What made you stop doing it? 

Amanda: I stopped doing it when Clinton pointed out to me that instead of us going out on date nights or us going on adventures, cause we were living right outside of Seattle at this time. And he pointed out to me, he was like, how many weekends in a row have you babysat for?

All of these moms, I counted on the calendar and it was nine weekends in a row, nine Saturdays that I was giving anywhere from 3 p. m. to 12 a. m. or like 6 p. m. to 2 a. m. Anywhere between those timeframes, uh, or even sometimes overnights to these families instead of being at home in my bed. Binging the new Netflix show or us going into Seattle going, we're not drinkers.

So we didn't [00:29:00] go bar hopping, but going from happy hour to happy hour, because we love appetizers. Yeah. Just enjoying your child's free life. And I was like. That's not cool. Like, why am I doing this? And I'm not getting anything but a little bit of money in return. And money is not worth all that frustration because whenever I would go home, I was so frustrated with a three or four month old baby screaming because she Is not used to taking bottles, she's used to being breastfed or the three year olds used to mommy or daddy singing songs.

And of course, I'm not mommy and daddy, so I don't sing the songs the right way and they're getting frustrated at me. Right, right. Worth this 60, 70, 100 bucks that I was dedicated. Right. 

Veronica: And this is so interesting, Amanda. I'm just like, so many thoughts and questions are coming into my head because I am picturing the initial need for friendship [00:30:00] and for community with these people, with these women, um, in, in the military families around you.

And you decide, okay, let me offer up my time. Cause that's the resource. that I can offer up so that I can further connect and build friendships and community. But while you're choosing to do that, you're disconnecting from your relationship, your child free life and your own freedom. So isn't that interesting how we just.

Get ourselves into these situations. It's a conundrum, if 

Amanda: you will. 

Veronica: Yeah, it's amazing. It's really amazing what our thoughts around what we're supposed to do, what society wants us to do, our ideas to pursue. Fit in to the right places, um, just makes us do so. Thank you for sharing that. Oftentimes people just assume that you have nothing [00:31:00] else to do because you don't have kids and people just think, right?

People just always think that we're sitting around doing nothing and. There is this whole idea that if you're not super busy with the kids 24 7, then what? So I'd love to know your thoughts on that. I could write a whole book series on this. Maybe you should. 

Amanda: Just the whole idea of child free people being lazy is astronomical, at least so far from my I just don't understand how people can say that because With or without kids, our lives are all busy.

I travel all the time for weddings and elopements, and I have a healthy relationship with my husband. We're, he's in the military, so that adds a whole nother level of stress and factoring in our lives with his career. And then we have three fur babies that rely on us 24 7. It comes back to child free humans [00:32:00] are Busy people just like parents are at the end of the day, 

Veronica: right?

And you could really actually say that from a personal perspective because you've done both roles, right? Even though they haven't been your own children You know what? It's like to be busy as a child free woman And you know what? It's like to be busy as someone who is taking care of kids and it's not that one is better or worse or anything like that.

It's just different things to be busy with. 

Amanda: I've been a nanny for on and off 10, 12 years. I love kids, which is why I've chosen to be a nanny. But at the end of the day, I'm able to give them back to mom and dad. So you definitely 

Veronica: have such a front row seat into what it's like to have both experiences.

Why do you think that women who are experiencing Experiencing this type of judgment or pressure or comments or insecurities or people pleasing Should consider going through this program 

Amanda: Veronica is such a wealth of information [00:33:00] and knowledge and truly has devoted her time expertise and Just herself to this program She has been in our shoes Many of us have struggled with a variety of child free decisions.

Knowing that this is the right choice for us, and just having Veronica on your shoulder, supporting and encouraging you is enough in itself. I've 

Veronica: never heard of that before, and I'm actually picturing you, like, on your, picturing myself on your shoulder, like, swinging my legs. Just sit on my shoulder.

Well, I really appreciate that. I remember you posting in our private page at one point that your husband had come down the stairs or walked by when we were in a session together with everybody from the program and say and said to you, it looks like you have found your people. Tell me what that felt like and what that was all about.

Amanda: When [00:34:00] I was going through the program, I was looking forward to our FaceTime or zoom calls. Like there was something that I had on my refrigerator next to our meal plan. Amanda's child free ladies. Um, it was scheduled. I hardly, I think I probably missed one or two because I was out of town or something.

But it was something that I really, really looked forward to. Not only for the topic that we were discussing, but also the community that we were building within the ladies that were participating in the program as well, they were in various points of their child free journey and knowing that not only do you have Veronica, but you have all these other ladies who are in the different points that can give you different perspectives.

It was just. Something that I truly, truly value, and I hold very close to my heart, and I encourage everyone to join the program because it is just really good. Thank 

Veronica: you so much. And I really echo that because it is such a [00:35:00] special time together of exploration and discovery. Sometimes it's just really hard, because I know it was for me when I was going through it, to just step outside of ourselves.

And that's what this program is, is stepping outside of ourselves and just allowing someone else to guide you. And that's just really the beauty of it because you don't have to have all the stress on your shoulders anymore. You can have me on your shoulders instead.

Amanda: No matter what's going on in your life. I know there was a few moments where I was really struggling with therapy or family dynamics. I was able to confide in the ladies in the group, of course, being a third party, you only get one side, my side, so just having that support and encouragement, even though we were going through the program, but we also had each other's backs and supporting each other, not in the child free decision, but also.

In life together, and even now in our [00:36:00] community that we have, um, through the app is absolutely wonderful. And I cherish those relationships so much. And I'm very grateful that I was, I joined the community and I'm an alumni, if you will. 

Veronica: Yeah, you certainly are. And it's such an honor to guide women like yourself.

And you're right. There's so much commonality between us besides being child free or going through the decision of whether we want to be child free or not. There's just so much that people open up about in their thoughts, their beliefs, their personal lives. And it really just bonds us together really quickly.

So now that a little time has passed since you graduated the program, tell me how you're Um, 

Amanda: I have had several discussions in the last year with my mother in law of just telling her flat out, stop asking for grandbabies. At the end of the day, it [00:37:00] is our decision and we have decided to not give you grandbabies.

We are not having children. If you want a newborn baby to hold, then go to a neighbor or something. I'm able to look at anybody. In the face and tell them that I'm child free and I have no hesitations, reservations, and this is my lifestyle. It's just really relieving to be able to be confident in saying to just even a stranger who asks, Hey, do you have kids?

No, I'm child free. Thank you. 

Veronica: Thank you so much for sharing that. I know that people will definitely relate and I love your confidence and I love your light and I love your energy. And it's been just such a pleasure, not only having you in my program, but really just developing a friendship with you. And I can't wait to see you again.

I can't wait to see you too, Veronica. Take care. Bye. Bye.