Transcript

Veronica: [00:00:00] Welcome to a bonus episode where I interview an alumni member of my program, Is Child Free For Me? The intention of this episode is to explore the intricate journey of embracing a child free life, a path that can be marked by uncertainty, anxiety, stress, And profound introspection. Rick and I will be back next week, but today I have the privilege of chatting with Vera, a remarkable woman who found herself at a crossroads in her early thirties, surrounded by friends, diving into parenthood.

Vera and her soon to be husband were charting their own course, preparing for their wedding while contemplating a child free future. However, a family tragedy shook their world, prompting them to re evaluate their plans. Vera candidly describes how they began to feel responsible for bringing joy to the family which resulted in them trying to conceive.

But, they [00:01:00] soon realized that they were grappling with infertility. She very honestly and openly shares how she had to decide how far she was willing to go with fertility treatment and how reaching out to me led her down a path of discovering what she truly wanted for herself and her future. Vera's story resonates with the profound significance of exploring the child free life.

With authenticity and depth. Let's get into it.

Hello, Vera. How are

Vera: you? Hi, I'm good. Thanks. How are

Veronica: you? Thanks so much for doing this with me and having a chat. I think it's very important to hear your point of view and just to let people know Vera is part of my program is child free for me, and you've been part of it. Since last September. Yeah. And, and what I really love about the program is that all of our members have [00:02:00] such.

unique experiences. I feel that although we have unique experiences and the way that we got to where we are is very different. And those details are very different, but at the end of the day, the commonality is there. Vera, let's talk about. First, why you even decided to book the original call

Vera: with me? A part of it is because you also kind of persuaded me while we were chatting in Instagram and the reason why I followed you was because I was really looking for like a positive narrative on life without children.

So I was really looking for someone who didn't call it childlessness. And then I found child free and I looked up that hashtag and that's how I found your channel. And I was like, I found myself like bookmarking probably every single post. And I, I turned out to be a very active commenter. And I think that's why also [00:03:00] you, uh, reached out to me and say, said to me that you had a program and that it might be something for me to join.

Veronica: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And then, so tell us, let's go back a little bit. Let's go back to where you were and what was going on before you made the call. So you're married to Jesse and you and him had been together for five years at the time. Married for five

Vera: years. Yeah. But we were together for way longer.

Yeah. Oh,

Veronica: right. Right. Yeah. Okay. So you were together for way longer. You were married for five years. And I remember that I asked him, I Asked you what your point of view was prior to getting married. Was kids something that you had to have and were dying to have? Or was it something that you weren't interested in?

So maybe you can share that.

Vera: Yeah, and it's really, it's, it's almost hard to share it because I learned so much along the way to share how it was before I knew all these things. Mm-Hmm. . But I'll try to go back to that. [00:04:00] So I think for us, we talked about not having kids. previous before this program. And like when we were a lot younger, I just didn't really notice that drive in myself to do that with my life.

But then, and also we, we got that answer from a lot of people around us, like just wait and you'll be ready for it in a couple of years. I also thought that that would happen. Um,

Veronica: And what about Jimmy? What was Jimmy thinking at this? I mean, Jesse,

Vera: sorry, what was Jesse thinking at this point? Yeah, he was on the same page or were you, we were always, and that is very easy.

That has been very easy for me that we were always kind of on the same page, uh, whether we were both. leaning towards a no or both maybe considering a yes. It's always been like our journey together and looking back he told me [00:05:00] that he usually was more on the no side and has thought at some occasions I could do this.

Right. If she really wants it and we could do it together. Right. Never. Yeah. So that was. He

Veronica: wasn't like I can't wait. I can't wait.

Vera: No, we both weren't. We both weren't really like that. Okay. Okay. Okay. You know, uh, people keep telling you, wait and see, wait and see. And at a certain point, a lot of things happen in your life as you grow older, you know, you experience loss and uncertainty with relationships and family.

And for us, that was really a moment, uh, when we had a lot of sickness and we lost a grandparent and my dad got sick and stuff like that. Those were kind of life A changing moments that made me reconsider and think like, Ooh, should we do this now? Should we add some life to this family? And, and so that was one thing.

And also I, I was around 30. So that was the age where people all make the [00:06:00] decision, but everybody, everybody does it. And you're like, well, I suppose we should do it as well. So you kind of ride along with, with the whole mass of people.

Veronica: Yeah, I know. Of course. I mean, even in the U S. Yes, there's a lot of that happening, but I want to talk a little bit more about when there's a tragedy in the family, because I have had people reach out to me that when there is a death in the family or illness or sickness, they start to lean more to having a kid.

Right. And it's a very confusing period of time because there's so many emotions. Yeah. Were you aware that maybe I'm feeling this way because this is happening or were you completely unaware?

Vera: I think mostly it was just like a adrenaline response almost on the whole situation that we were in and looking for a way, but this is looking back, of course, I think we were looking for a way to [00:07:00] control a thing that you cannot control and try to.

Gift some happiness back to people you see struggling around you and you know that this will make them happy So for me, I'm an Elvis child I'm feel responsible for the happiness of my family members a lot I think and I thought that might be the ultimate way to make people happy and I think it during that time That was not as clear to me as it is now, but I do remember telling my husband, you know, we should add something to this family.

So I do think that was a part of the motivation, but it was not as clear to me. Later on, when I look back, I saw that all my motivations were so external because it was all to, you know, give other people. Right.

Veronica: Right. Even the idea of

Vera: saying like, so it felt like a sacrifice

Veronica: almost . Yeah, exactly. And even the idea of saying it like to gift to my family, to gift them joy in a way because you're like, oh, this would make everybody so [00:08:00] happy and everyone's so sad, so let me gift them this thing.

Yeah. And I actually can understand that.

Vera: Yeah. So you, you kind of feel responsible. And that combined with the age we were in at that time, and it was a hot topic for everyone. It all kind of came together. Yeah, exactly. If it would have just happened for us back then, we would have done it. Because the only reason I gave it extra thought was because we could also not control the process of getting pregnant.

So That we were forced to rethink that decision that we made in the first place. So, yeah. Right,

Veronica: exactly. So you were able to get through the hard. I mean, I know the pain never goes away of that loss and of the family. So you were able to get through that hump and then were you married at that point or

Vera: not yet?

No, we were one year away from getting married. We were already

Veronica: engaged. Yeah. Okay. So then you decided to get married and now you're married. And what is the feeling now between the both of you as far as [00:09:00] children?

Vera: Before the wedding, we were like, let's do this. And I kind of chucked my birth control that same night.

And then I also dug it up again because I woke up during the night and it's like I was panicking and I kind of got it back and was like, I should I do. I don't want to stop right now. You know, it feels very scary. And also we have the wedding coming. Oh, you both

Veronica: decided like, let's do this. And it wasn't even a wedding

Vera: yet.

Wow. So we were like, let's do this right now. And then we came back to, um, to that decision because I was like, Oh, I want to focus on the wedding first and I want to fit in my dress and I want to, you know, all these things. So, um, then we were like, well, let's start then after we are married and after we get back from the honeymoon.

Right. It's like such a natural moment.

Veronica: It's really interesting because you're giving such a good explanation of the wave that we always talk about, of, of, you know, one [00:10:00] day, one month, one year, yeah, the roller coaster and we're like, Oh, let's do this. This is a hundred percent happening. And then all of a sudden there's another, Oh wait, let's just push it back.

Right. Like the goalposts gets pushed back because of very valid reasons, by the way, like the idea that getting married is enough stress. And then adding that to it and what if you're sick and you're having complications and you're not feeling well. So, yeah, it seems like it was a very emotional response and then logic hit and it was like, okay, that's probably not best for us now.

So then, yeah. So then you got married and then was it immediately that because you had paused it for the wedding, Was it immediately after that you both decided, let's give this a try now?

Vera: Yeah, yeah, I think we were like let's let's do we decided back then to postpone until the wedding. So let's start now Okay.

Veronica: Okay, and you were both on board and you were both like let's do this [00:11:00] thing and then tell us what happened

Vera: Then it turned out we tried but we couldn't conceive So, first couple of months, you're like, that's normal, and I think that's fine, and then it kind of becomes an obsession, uh, the longer it takes to conceive.

And then, after a while, I think a year in, we went to the doctor, and she said, uh, you're right to come here, and, um, You know, let's do some tests and see if we find the obvious reasons, uh, for infertility that a lot of couples, uh, have. And so we went to the hospital for testing. They didn't find anything.

Then you're in this pretty large group, actually, of people who appears not to be able to conceive, but they don't really know why, because it's actually Super unclear like the female body. It's they don't know a lot about it. I felt in the during the whole testing and yeah And I do hear that from our

Veronica: community a lot from people that yeah, right that they had no reason [00:12:00] they couldn't find no Anything related to why they were not able to conceive.

Yeah, which actually it almost And I don't know you tell me because it feels So much harder, like if I don't, I have a lot of health issues, right? So when I find something that's wrong, it almost brings me a sense of relief. Yeah. Because now I know why I'm feeling that way. Was it the

Vera: same? Yeah. It's, it's old.

It's, I think it's a roller coaster as well because you're kind of going in between these two things because at one hand, yes, it's bad because you don't know how to fight it. If you don't know where to fight. On the other hand, it was really a relief for me. to not be in that group with the obvious, like the findable reasons, because then you are definitely in trouble because those reasons that you can find in these tests are pretty serious.

So you might have a bad egg production or no, no sperm or stuff like that. So for us. They [00:13:00] basically told us, you know, we can't find anything that's wrong, so you could just go on and it might just happen because there's nothing that we can find that says that it wouldn't happen. Okay. So then we kind of got sent back home and, and told to, you know, keep on trying.

Um, which we did and was there hope

Veronica: in you? Was there extreme sadness? I mean, I can't even imagine what that's like. I have not experienced that. I think that what you said before really resonates because when you're not able to do something, whether you really wanted it to, or you kind of wanted to, or you, It just becomes the one thing in the whole world that you want.

Vera: That's exactly the thing because I didn't even know for sure that I wanted this. We were kind of like, you know, let's, let's do this and, and it will happen. And then we will roll with it. And I would probably, that's probably how you do it. Right. You know, like it's kind of a. scary situation. And especially at the start, I was relieved and sad at the [00:14:00] same time if it didn't work out for that month.

But while you, you said it exactly right, like a lot during the whole, trying to conceive time, you got so super focused on this thing to work and you kind of forget even the whole what happens after that. You, you're not even focused on the baby anymore. You're only focused on why does my body do. What it's supposed to be doing and that becomes in my case that became the real thing like I was Constantly focused on all the signals I might be getting from my body and being so tuned in and focused that it became like too much focus Right, like

Veronica: that's the only thing you want to accomplish.

That's the only thing you desire That's the only thing you wish to do and it's interesting what you said because I hadn't even thought about the before is that You're so focused on that. You're not even thinking about at this point, like what raising a child is like, you know, it may affect your life or you're, you just want to focus on getting pregnant and [00:15:00] that's the main thing for you.

Not that everybody, not that everybody feels this way, but. That, that makes so much sense and I can understand that so much. Um, not to this level, obviously, because I haven't experienced it, but it's just human nature I think. It is. Yeah, I think so. When you can't have something, you want it more.

Vera: Yeah.

That's, that's so true. And I think everyone can recognize this on a, on a certain level because that's. exactly what it's like. And yeah, also because you are, especially when later on we did, I'm not sure if it's called IUI in the US as well. It's a treatment that's not as invasive as IVF might be, but it's still a very medical process that you have to go through injecting yourself with stuff.

And you know, every day you're thinking about the whole thing and you're so in the process that you forget to kind of check in with yourself and see if this is still what you want. And also the hospital kind of. Pushes you through and one thing doesn't work out. They say, well, let's go on to the next.

And you're like, [00:16:00] okay, sure. Let's do that. Whatever I need to

Veronica: do at this

Vera: point. And exactly. Up until one point that we were like, wait a minute. We just want to, you know, I'm not sure if I want to take all these steps anymore. And that was for us. That was the point that they recommended to go through an IVF.

And we were like, that's very invasive. I wasn't really happy these last couple of years. Actually, it was an understate. I was really unhappy those years. It was very tumultuous. Also like socially friends getting pregnant, it was like terrible. Yeah, it was. It was definitely all consuming. Looking back, it almost feels, we had to go through it, but it feels like such a waste of, of energy and sadness that we've both been feeling those years.

Mm hmm, yeah. It makes sense,

Veronica: right? Of course, it does. It just makes

Vera: sense. You have to go through it.

Veronica: Yeah, and I'm sure everywhere you looked, if you saw a baby, if you saw a mom with a child, if you saw a child, if you went to a family event, if you [00:17:00] went to a social event, It was just a constant, constant, like

Vera: everyone was probably, you know, the danger of a pregnancy announcement was everywhere.

And that was, I was so afraid for that to happen in every situation. Yeah. And the funny thing is that even like babies didn't really. It was mostly seeing pregnant women, not the babies themselves, because I didn't really like it. I was, I've never really loved kids or babies in that way. Like, like some women do that.

They see them and they're like, Oh my God. don't usually have that, but I was convinced that I would feel that for my own child. I still think that if I, you know, hormonal, you know, it would work out, but it was not like, I'm sure I would too.

Veronica: I'm sure. Yeah. I'm not going to

Vera: be like, I think so. But you know, it was not like when I saw a baby, I was not like, Oh my God, I want to have that.

I was, it was more of the pregnancy itself. That's

Veronica: really interesting. It's such a hard [00:18:00] line between what you're trying to achieve ultimately, which is. to raise a human being, but it just like stops you in your tracks and it's like, just focus on this. So I can understand how a pregnant woman would be more triggering than even seeing a child.

Yeah. Okay. So when you were at the point that you had to decide if we're moving forward with IVF, is that when we connected or was it way after you decided, let's take a pause?

Vera: I think that was after we decided, let's take a pause because it started out like that. We thought the doctor was already ready to like sign us in.

She was really sitting there like, uh, are you going to join us next week? And we, I was like, Whoa, just wait a minute. I just want to, you know, let this sink in that this first thing didn't really work out. And I want to check in with myself and see what I feel after I'm not under the influence of all these.

Artificial hormones that they put [00:19:00] in me and, you know, just taking a breather. Yeah. That's what we decided

Veronica: at first. And I remember that you said to me that to you, it felt very like down and poor us, like the messaging you were receiving was. For sure. Yeah.

Vera: Well,

Veronica: what, what, like your life is not going to be, you know, complete, you know, the messaging was like, you are.

Not, you know, how can you be, you're not going to be a full woman until you go through this system so we can get you pregnant and, and I remember you telling me that and me feeling so like, wow, here's a woman that's been through so much, has so much emotion around this, is really trying to figure this all out and is being exposed to messaging of whatever you got to do, you got to do because you have to keep it going because if not, Not in these exact words, but if not, you're going to be miserable.

And that really stood out to me too, that you were able to recognize that that was happening, right? Because [00:20:00] some people, it just becomes the norm, right? Because that's what a lot. Yeah. I

Vera: think a lot of people, um, yeah. And I was in that pause state and I was like, well, Let's just check in and see what I want and do I want this?

And the answer to that is, am I prepared to do all these things in order to be a mother afterwards for like 20 years, hands on? And then after that, of course, as well, but you know, they can kind of move out then. And I was like, how much effort do I want to? Take to, to reach this point that I thought that I wanted, but do I?

And so it was really like a soul searching moment.

Veronica: How were you able to be so self aware and stop and soul search and stop and think about this? Did that just come from within?

Vera: I was forced to because of the situation we were in. And it was literally just for me, I was weighing, trying to weigh the pros and cons.[00:21:00]

The medical path was clear from the hospital. They said, you know, you have to do this and then that will happen. And I was like, well, if I don't want to do this, because I really felt like I don't want to, I just don't want to do this anymore. Then what will the path be? And then I realized, like what you said, that a lot of these Instagram accounts that I used to be for support, they focus on the loss so much.

And I couldn't really. Find myself in that narrative because I just didn't resonate with me that much I was like it it is very Focusing on that and it's not even trying to tell maybe the upside So that was when I was looking for other stories and other narratives and I found you and you were I think there's been a revolution In the meantime, but you were really the only one back then that had this clear of a message.

So you're, you're probably a thought leader by now. But I think that was the only one that I saw. And I saw, like, I remember, I think it was a video of you like kind of running around being happy, [00:22:00] maybe drinking cocktails or something. I don't know what it was, but it was just like a very short reel in which you were like, I am child free and I'm happy about it.

Yes. And I was like, I got to find more of these people who are happy about this because I don't want to be together with all the sad, mopey, mourning people for the rest of my life because that's not how I want to live my

Veronica: life. Yeah, no, I love that. And it's really interesting to me because I can't imagine someone going through this, this type of process that you went into and not being given the.

There's an alternative here that can fulfill you and be just as joyful that you can at least, at the very least examine. It may not be for you, but like really

Vera: mind blowing for

Veronica: me, let's just examine it. Yeah, right. Exactly. Right. I'm glad that you did find us. It's really important for me to understand why people are seeking this type of answers.

As [00:23:00] far as, okay, let's say wherever you come from. Let's say I. Pick this path, then what, right? Like, what is that going to look like? How am I going to get through it? And I think what I really saw from you was that interest, you know, I've been going this way and I'm not completely shutting this down. I just want to.

Be informed. I, that's what I felt. That was exactly,

Vera: yeah. I was at the point that I was like, if I'm going to do IVF, I want to be super clear about go for that, like a hundred percent that way, but before I can do that, I want to see what the other way is as well, so I can make that choice like deliberately and not just be pushed and kind of roll in that direction because of the.

punches that life throws at you. Yeah, so I wanted to be very informed about the other path that you could take in life and what that would look like besides all the prejudice that society probably

Veronica: has about that you're going to end up old and alone and miserable.

Vera: Yeah, and be [00:24:00] a crazy cat lady and whatnot.

Yeah. Right,

Veronica: exactly. It's so interesting. It's clear. Like someone thought, um, Oh no, it was one of our program members. Uh, family members thought that we were a cult or, and that, that my soul and that my soul mission in life was to convince all of you to not have children. Which is not it at all And I can't say it enough.

It's so funny I mentioned it over and over and over on my social media how both choices are equal and viable But right why not learn about this one, but still, you know

Vera: Making people realize that there is a choice because even though we kind of made the choice We only Did it at the first because it was so, it felt like the obvious choice.

It didn't really feel like a choice until I did the program.

Veronica: It's just how we were programmed and conditioned to [00:25:00] be. And this is just, I feel is, and what I feel for myself is there was like an unraveling of is everything true? Is what's being presented to me true? And. What is really going on here, which is when I started my discovery, which is what the program is about.

I wanted to talk about the fact that you were very, very hesitant to join.

Vera: I knew you were going to bring this up. It's

Veronica: true, it's true. And I want people to know that I see it, right? I can understand like how is this thing going to help me, but I want to hear your side of it. So why don't you tell us why you were so skeptical and you were, you always, I always tell you stands out in my mind cause you want it more and you were like digging and digging.

I don't know. I don't know. Very light. And you

Vera: were very patient, which was kind of,

Veronica: you were very [00:26:00] suspicious, but I was. Uh, I was

Vera: suspicious because, um, well, you mentioned already that some people kind of view it as a cult. And I think that I was like, why do you have to have a program about this? She's just trying to sell something to me and it's not going to be worth it.

And this is just one of those Instagram coaches. So I was kind of wary. Why do I have to pay? And what is this? And yeah, she's trying to, you know, basically lay off of me and off of my doubts and, uh, fears that I'm, uh, having. And so I was, that was my first thought. And that's why I was skeptical

Veronica: because I was like, and I think that's fair.

I think that's completely fair. And I'm sure I've talked to people that perhaps have thought the same thing because, you know, when I launched, um, it's child free for me. It's a blessing and a curse [00:27:00] because it's the first of its kind. I mean, I looked everywhere for. And there's, there's a lot of decision making books and programs of do I want to be a mom or do I want a child free and it's child free for me only focuses on exploring the child free side and what you can expect from that.

So being that it didn't exist, it was almost. What the hell is this to like, if there was like,

Vera: yeah, there was no comparison. No, I couldn't go like, Oh, this is like this, but different. It was just, you know, so I compared it to self help coaches. And so I was more like, why does she care? And what gives her like the knowledge or like authority to talk about this?

Veronica: Right. Yeah. Exactly. No, very true. And you,

Vera: and I asked these questions to you as well because I was, I was curious enough to not like completely shove it aside. I was like, Hmm, I am very, you know, interested. It felt [00:28:00] like the right time. And I think you said it a couple of times, like the program, you are like the perfect member for this program and it really, this is the right time in your life and you should do this.

And I was like. What's it to you?

And then I think you just patiently explained every time. And I, and now I understand because at this point I'm like, without it making it sound like a cult, I do want people, more people to, uh, to see that they have a choice because I, I can see it around me now that people kind of just walk in these Societal traps

Veronica: at what point of the program did you say to yourself?

Okay, this isn't a scam, or okay, this could potentially be exactly what I need right

Vera: now. You showed me, not even the contents, but just the setup of the whole program, so what it meant. [00:29:00] Right. And I was like, wow, that's so thorough. That's, I did not expect that. I really expected to be like 12 chapters with, with sub chapters and lessons and like a tracker that you could reflect on.

And I think for me it was the combination of the vastness of how, of the whole program, like the immense, I really expected like three videos or something and it was so much more. I know I'm a nut job when it comes to these things. Yeah, and that's so good. The questions that you have in the, in the tracker that you use to reflect on these videos, they really opened up my mind in different directions and they really helped me formulate my thoughts.

From that moment on and I, I saw the first couple of videos and I was like, wow, this is so much and it's so rich. And, and then I joined the first lounge session. Yeah, that was, that really helped me as well. I was like, wow, all these ladies from different parts of the [00:30:00] world. And, and it's, there's such a great vulnerability and openness in the group, even though We haven't met, at least not all of us have yet, we're going to, and that really just gave me breath of fresh air in the moment that I really needed it, that I was kind of like scrambling around here in my own situation and going over and over the same thoughts.

And I really felt like you already went through that. And you saved everything you learned and you can convey it in such a understandable way that it really helped me. Yeah. Get to a different way of thinking, which is really nice. Yeah.

Veronica: And this is why it took me a while to create this course because I needed to believe it.

I needed to be super clear of how I was going to lead this journey with. Everyone who entered what I really love is that I can [00:31:00] I'm going to cry. It's like my favorite part I was like I get I see people Mentoring other people who enter the program and that to me is or sharing experience with somebody else And seeing because it's so much more valuable even than it coming from me to see Hey, I was in your exact same shoes.

So just share with us maybe one or two things that really shifted your perspective or your thoughts on this whole

Vera: thing. So in the program, for me, the questions that did it were the, the searching questions and the reflecting ones that kind of discovered your own motivations. So why, and, and this is why I can, you know, looking back, say that all my motivations were so external and also kind of short term because focusing on pregnancy and maybe infancy, not even thinking about raising a child that emotionally being [00:32:00] also responsible for a healthy child that has to be a contributing member of society at the end of it.

And for me, just thinking about what am I choosing? Uh, which sounds so simple, but it was really, that was the part that I was making myself nuts on, like all the things that come into that conversation, like, what about if I'm lonely, what if I get, if I feel sorry afterwards, what if, uh, I have regret, uh, when I'm old, who will take care of me, what about if my husband not be there anymore, will I be, you know, just me, do I not need to have, to have kids to kind of be like a backup, you know, and all these things.

things. If you really think them through, they are not good reasons to bring another life into the world and be responsible for that. But you are very much drilled by everything around you to think that it is that it is normal to think that way. It's a lifelong program because sometimes your, your feel on top of it.

And, and you're like, yeah, but I know what it's [00:33:00] really like. And I know my decisions and my motivations. And then a week later, you feel like the total opposite of that. And this is when you, sometimes when I need to revisit my own tracker, maybe that I, uh, or, or some videos that I was like, Oh yeah, this is.

This is what I felt like because you keep growing and evolving and it's always good to check in also with this decision. You know, do I still feel like that? This is the way for me or have I changed my mind because you can so I think that for me It's the reflecting on your own motivations is a big reason of why I feel more Calm in my decisions right now.

Yeah,

Veronica: that makes a lot of sense. And I'm so glad that you're able to do that. And one of the themes that we really talk about is quieting the noise around us and people try to do it on their own. Cause I did, I really focused on that because I really tried, but it was almost impossible to do without [00:34:00] guidance and without the right reflection questions because Like you said, no matter where you go, no matter where you walk, it's in your face that You know, maybe not for everyone, obviously, but for women that are where we are with this, where I used to be and with this process, it's everything reminds you of it and everybody, I mean,

Vera: whether you have, everyone thinks if you have no kids, it must be because of some great tragedy because it cannot be because you want it.

So it's really, yeah. It's being pushed on you from every direction.

Veronica: Right. And also what I love about our group is that everybody's from different regions, different countries. Yeah. We can all relate to each other so well, like that sense of global. Uh, has been really interesting to me because before I started the program, I was wondering how people from different regions of the world would connect.

Vera: Same for me, because I was like, [00:35:00] isn't this going to be like very American? Right. Um. Right. But that doesn't really matter. It's, it's the same for all of us. It is, it is. And that been really, and you know, talking about these big life, uh, changes that happen and kind of make you reconsider a lot of things like it did for me a while ago, that also, you know, you can, I can share that with the group members as well.

Right now, you know, people kind of wobble through different waves of life, uh, at different speeds. And yeah, so you can, you can help each other, uh, a lot and it doesn't really matter where you're from.

Veronica: No, I thought that was so interesting to me. I was really, that was really one of my concerns about, can I, Bring all these women together.

Is it going to be such a problem that culturally we've all had different experiences? And at the end of the day, it wasn't because they're very similar. I do

Vera: think we are all like Western. Um, yes, but that's, that's the only [00:36:00] common thing we have because it's the people are from all over the place and, uh, in the U S but also Europe.

So it's, it's very, yeah, Singapore. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's very unifying in that sense. So

Veronica: it is, it is. And it's amazing that we can all relate so well and it doesn't matter where you're from at all. I think it's just like experience of being a woman, because we talk so much about. Other things being women that are very much the same no matter what country you're in.

And I think that we're all very strong. And there's an, and we've talked about this before, that there's an underlying women's empowerment foundation to our conversations because we're all very strong women, and I think people get confused by this. Like if you are. For example, I'll use myself for an example.

I've always been super career oriented. I've always been excellent. Anything job related, anything I need to organize. [00:37:00] And when it came to this, I was a hot, hot mess. So I think that people just. Label you like, Oh, you're, if you're so together in this area, then you must be all together in different areas of your life.

And it doesn't mean that you're any weaker or you're any stronger, but it's, it can happen to anybody. I mean, I was a mess over it for so many years, but on the outside, because I internalized so much of it on the outside, I was fine. You know, I'm this. I'm a high functioning member of society and no one even knows that on the inside, I'm just making myself not, yeah, I

Vera: wasn't going to say it, but yeah, yeah,

Veronica: yeah.

You know? So it's interesting. It's interesting to see that way. So tell me one more thing from the program that you felt maybe that you were surprised by or. That you felt was really helpful or either the program or the, or the lounges or anything I [00:38:00] really

Vera: like how we as a group stay in touch so much.

And I think that that feeling of that group is really something that I did not expect because I was like, well, yeah, who needs more zoom calls, you know, and I was

Veronica: afraid about myself too. I was like, no, my people are going to be like, Oh. God, I got

Vera: to jump on zoom again. Yeah. And, and, you know, of course there's that initial kind of hump you have to get over because you know, I'm, I'm sure you have it too.

Like during the work week, you're also doing this a lot and it, and you're like, Oh God, more of that. But then as soon as you hop on, you're like, yay, I'm in this warm energy again. And it's, it's amazed me how these group calls have this super warm, positive energy and vulnerability that everyone feels. And a lot of times it's, it's very vulnerable.

People are sharing, are so open in sharing these personal stories and [00:39:00] sometimes also very emotionally touched. And people just feel the liberty to do that. Maybe because we don't know each other in any other capacity. So that gives the kind of freedom as well, but it also gives a lot of love inside the group.

And I, I really liked that aspect. And now that I've, Finish the, all the program and the tracker and everything. I still keep getting back for those lounge calls and seeing everyone. Yeah.

Veronica: It's nice. We all get so excited when we see each other. We haven't seen each other

Vera: for a long time. And of course I can't, no one can join all the calls all the time, but then it's good to know that there's a rhythm and you can hop on back the next time.

And yeah, you will see at least. I guess

Veronica: the big question is, where are you now? How are you feeling? What are your, what's going on in that little head of yours?

Vera: So comparing to this time, uh, last year, for instance, I [00:40:00] feel so much more comfortable with how my life is. what my life looks like. And yeah, I think I noticed a big change as soon as I started that program because I could verbalize all the things that got into my head.

So you make yourself nuts and now you know why you're, you know that a lot of these things are not you and it's, it goes so much deeper than just The yes or no, do I want children, but it goes all the implications that may have so what I really liked the Depth in which you explored that question. So it's about friendship and what do I want my life to look like?

It's about health. It's about financials. It's about getting in control Of your life and, uh, and doing so very consciously. And that really makes such a huge difference for me. It felt like a, like a line that just went up from, from the moment I got into the program and I [00:41:00] felt like I got more tools. I got more friendship.

I got more. A place to, you know, open myself up and talk about these things with people who really, really, really understand what you're going through. All those things made me, you know, gave me the opportunity to think consciously and make the decision to definitely not to IVF because of not wanting that result, which doesn't mean that sometimes you kind of get like, Ooh, am I really sure about this?

And I think that's okay because you have to keep checking in. So it's healthy to keep revisiting, but I don't feel lost anymore in that. I know that there's videos and I like my own reflection. Turn back to, and I know that there's a group of people I can turn to as well. So that feels very nice and secure.

Oh, I love that. I love

Veronica: that you're feeling that way. Really makes me really happy. Yeah. Watching you put those walls down and [00:42:00] actually do it and just see. How, like you said, how that line just keeps going up, just fills my heart with so much joy. Yeah.

Vera: Oh, well, I'm so glad too, because yeah, it's without being too cheesy.

You could cut this out if you want, but I got you to thank for all that. But Vera, thank you

Veronica: so much for your time. so much for your honesty. Thank you so much for being the woman that you are. And, uh, yeah, thank you for, uh, for being here with me. Yeah,

Vera: you're welcome. I loved being here. And I hope that people who are doubting to, you know, join this program that they know after seeing me that it's, it's going to be so worth it.

So, yeah. Thank

Veronica: you. I'm glad you've helped. And I will see you in the next lounge.